Musings from Crown Alumni

Friday, August 11, 2006

Gabe, I said I'd give you a good reply, and so I've got a few hours, so I'll give it a try. Cute, I know. Didn't mean that to be so corny.
Your concerns are very interesting to hear since my connections have most often been with people either finding themselves connected with emergent thought or even further past that, so to hear an "in-the-church", traditional view is good. I can only speak for myself on these things, but you probably wouldn't be suprised to find how many people pop up and say the same things. That's how I felt when I read Miller and McLaren. What I had been thinking about for years, completely unable to solidify and verbalize, they wrote down and went even further. I was part of the same church all four years of school, and as far as emergent existed back then, the River was at least on the edge of Canaan. It had the most basic direction and interest as I would later discover in Miller and McLaren, but even so, I spent my last years at Crown very... unsatisified. Much of that had and still has to do with me. That's fine. But there were too many things in our culture, in the basic social and religious culture I grew up in, that really bothered me to just shrug and go along with quietly.
By the time I was quitting grad school, I was on the verge of quitting church, for good as far as I could see. I wasn't okay with the systems, the norms, the necessities and the surface treatments that I encountered in a lot of churches. Nobody seemed interested in the whole thing, either in terms of fixing or even just questioning. It was like people knew there were leaks in the ship, but we were almost told to just stand on a leak if we saw it and then just stay there rather than ask the question if the ship was more important than the voyage. I'm being purposefully vague. But, amid my preparations to part with the formal church structures that I knew about, I happened to hear about a book from Kyle that he said I would love.
Kyle was one of the few reasons I kept with things as long as I did. You know him as well as I do, and the kid has no streak of perfection or some undeniable, superhuman ability that should push him across the universe ahead of the rest of us. But there he was, in a little church plant, with a bunch of people that didn't know about how to get dressed up for church or how to argue about music or how to set mission trip fundraising goals. Or at least, that's how I imagined it from the stories he told. And so we'd talk about church, about the Bible, and about how these people were actually getting to know Jesus, most of them emerging from AA meetings and still not prepared for a Sunday morning gathering so formal and rigid. And so I still had a glimmer of hope in me concerning the Church.
I read BLJ. I felt like I was writing it as I was reading it. Then my girlfriend gave me A New Kind of Christian, and it went deeper. Then we broke up, but that didn't change anything, not in this realm. I actually got to watch her from a distance, to see how these ideas affected her life (she had grown up in a very conservative, southern Baptist church, and to hear the biases and traditions given to her by this very specific culture were frightening). Then I left Montana and only just recently came to a place where I could talk with her again, and not yet about things so personal as this.
I showed up here in Washington over a year ago, and for six months I attended a church, bustling and bright, thousands of people strong, polished and shiny new in their recently errected church building out on the edge of town. The lead pastor was young enough, encouraging and real. But... it wasn't my church. Not in six months, and I'm pretty sure not ever. Now, the emergent conversation says that I'm supposed to be fine with this, that each church has its purpose, some being more active and living than others, but I am not supposed to be troubled by the ones I can't understand or agree with. So, I won't detail my real troubles with this former church I attended. Let's just say, I tried the programs, the small groups (one for the entire six months with not a single relationship to show from it), the Saturday seminars, and I was back to square one. I was a face in the crowd, and this church couldn't get together without having a crowd.
I went to one last young adult outing, only having a conversation with the leader of the group who was leaving for California, otherwise I spent the night by myself, and I realized that, despite a real effort on my part, I hadn't made a single friend in six months of weekly seeing these same people. They said the right things, they prayed very zealously, and they talked about the Bible a lot, but they couldn't break away from their picture of their little group enough to let in a stranger. I never went back.
I did some church hopping. I've never been the sort that can do it successfully. Actually, it was easier now because I was ready to put up with very little glossy crap in order to find a real fit. I walked in and out over several services, usually before the sermon was over. Everybody was standing on the holes and talking about their kids soccer games and new evangelism classes and the sound mix. I was glad to slip in and out.
One Sunday morning in the beginning of December, I caught sight of a sign on an elementary school about a church with a really weird name: "Renovatus". I told myself I had to try it, but I was scared these people were going to be so corny I wouldn't be able to breathe. I mean, who came up with that name. It was almost like Imago, but just weird. And it looked tiny. I drove into the parking lot, took several deep breaths, and walked in the doorway. There were weird paintings up, Christmas lights on draperies, and a guy wearing a Vote for Pedro shirt. I really did feel at home instantly. The first person that walked up to me used the phrase, "a church for people who don't like church", and he was right. It was awkward. The pastor wasn't smooth, he wasn't unbelievably deep or even someone I could completely relate with, but he certainly was there out of love. I met nearly the whole church that day. I also encountered one of our norms, that being, nothing. Our weeks don't look very similar at all. I can only remember one real sermon in style and length. There are constant glitches and troubles, and nobody cares that things aren't neat and perfectly timed. That night, the first night I went, I was invited to a white elephant gift party. I went with some dollar DVD's from Target, left with candy canes and a pezz dispenser, and a group of people that I knew, and that acted like they wanted to know me. They've faked it this long.
Now that was a really long introduction to my experience reconnecting with the Church through an emergent community. I figure I can go from there and try to reply to Gabe's worries.
BLJ doesn't have a thesis because life doesn't have a thesis. It's an academic idea that has infiltrated Christian thought to a point that the two cannot be distinguished: by that I mean rationalism and Christianity. I think our education pushed us towards finding things that weren't necessarily there a lot of the time, and this thesis search is one of them. Just think of the title (it comes from this passage, page 100): "There is something quite beautiful about the Grand Canyon at night. There is something beautiful about a billion stars held steady by a God who knows what He is doing. (They hang there, the stars, like notes on a page of music, free-form verse, silent mysteries swirling in the blue like jazz)..." Find a thesis in jazz, or in the sky, or in humanity, or God. Not very possible. Not very necessary.
Reaction against the present state of most American evangelical churches could be a resistence to authority, a failure to submit. Luther had a reaction against the church of his day. Was he failing to submit? Or was his questioning necessary, the outcomes troublesome, but our place in the world maybe better off because of it? I'm not saying we're on the verge of some great movement. I'm saying that just because any part of the church has been around for a while doesn't give it the right to claim itself as a necessary route to God. A great deal of churches act like the buildings they reside in - once build, maybe added onto once, but unable to grow and change, and unable to die and give room for the next generation to grow up, free from their burden, unable to pass on wisdom and insight without shackling the young with their tendencies, tastes and shortsightedness. We think of the Church as we think of God, and our failure to let the church be a body, where cells die and new ones grow to take their place has given us great cancers that are much worse than young, immature organs.
I think Miller intentionally shows that the Bible by itself is not why he knows Jesus or is part of the Christian Church. Cults actually seem very connected with certain parts of the Bible. Think of Mormonism. I think McLaren gives a very clear exposition of biblical authority in A Generous Orthodoxy.
"The Bible, (Paul) says, is good for equipping people to do good works... Interestingly, when Scripture talks about itself, it doesn't use the language we often use in our explanations of its value. For modern Western Christians, words like authority, inerrancy, infallibility, revelation, objective, absolute, and literal are crucial (his emphasis, not mine). Many churches or denominations won't allow people to become members unless they use these words in tehir description of Scripture. Hardly anyone realizes why these words are important. Hardly anyone knows about the stories of Sir Isaac Newton, Rene Descartes, the Enlightenment, David Hume, and Foundationalism- which provide the context in which these words are so important. Hardly anyone notices the irony of resorting to the authority of extrabiblical words and concepts to justify one's belief in the Bible's ultimate authority." (p.164)
Miller is also writing to a more general audience than just evangelicals, and so when we reference the Bible as an authority, it is meaningless to most other people. Experience is something everyone can relate to, and that's a good place to start.
I'm really excited that people are ready to ask serious questions about the whys and hows of church in our culture. If some people break away from a Sunday-morning, steeple and tie-wearing crowd to find a group of Christians who know them and spur them on, I'm up for it. I think it's been time for some change for a while. Do I think the average church out there is wrong or evil? Nope. But the assumption that the old way is the right way cannot help us when it seems quite clear that a whole lot of us have lost the way. Maybe that's not the case. I just see an incongruity between the Church (in the Bible, in history, thinking long term and pulling together many different forms and heritages) and your average American church, and the solution can't be staying the same.
And that was really long. I've got to get ready for work. Hope this gives you the other side, Gabe. We'll see if I stepped out of bounds (but there isn't any for us emergent people, right?). I'm funny. Where's Bob when I need him? Montana, right. I remember.

31 Comments:

  • I would encourage you all to read "A Generous Orthodoxy." It is the heart of the postmodern movement. I was very frustrated. McLaren openly admits that much of what he says is purely antagonistic and unfounded. That's fine for casual conversations, but basing one's view of God on something like that seems very problematic to me. I'd encourage you to read it for yourself and see if that's what God really wants for his church.

    By Blogger bradley, at 11:27 AM  

  • I'll look back through what I underlined, Hubka, and share with you my specific problems with it.

    By Blogger bradley, at 9:00 PM  

  • I'm trying to decide if this is worth doing. I'm pretty much over the whole postmodern/emergent movement. It makes me angry.

    By Blogger bradley, at 2:15 PM  

  • Why does it make you angry, Brad? If you're over it, it shouldn't have that sort of a hold on you.

    By Blogger Lynnea, at 6:44 AM  

  • You're right. It shouldn't. And for a while it doesn't. But then I see more young college students who don't know the Bible very well falling into it. And then it reminds me how dangerous it really is - not for me anymore, but for them. And it makes me sad that they are missing out on a very important part of Christianity - believing true things about God.

    By Blogger bradley, at 2:09 PM  

  • Wow,

    What a dialogue. I have a lot to write about, but I just returned from vacation (if you call Milwaukee a vacation destination) so I do not have time at the moment. I will right again soon.

    By Blogger Our Family, at 8:25 AM  

  • Of course Milwaukee is a vacation destination... in summer only.

    OK, here's my deal. The emergent church does away with beliefs. They are not important, since regardless of what we believe, we cannot know it to be true. What is more important to them is to act rightly. But what motivates action if not belief? I think we act based on our beliefs. If we don't think that what we believe is true, there is no reason to act in any certain way. And if we don't think that our beliefs are correct, how can we pass them on to others? Not only that, but for God's sake I think we should seek to believe true things about him.

    While I appreciate some things about the emerging/emergent church movement, I think they can all be obtained without sacrificing true beliefs.

    By Blogger bradley, at 6:12 PM  

  • So Wakefield told me about Hubka's post and told me I should read it. Hubka, well put! I love the idea about life not having a thesis. I think that quote should be canonized at the next ETS meeting.

    Ultimately I question the idea that people in evangelical circles really benefit from having these “core” beliefs. Honestly, how many of them could tell us the tenets of their faith and give us scriptural references? Could they identify the ‘holes’ in emergent belief that are dangerous and give a solid scriptural/theological explanation of why? Could they tell me why they pray to father, son, and holy ghost? Core beliefs may be preached from a pulpit but the majority of evangelical church attendees could most likely not give you any more reason for their beliefs than an emergent church attendee could. The existence of core dogmas in a church does not mean that attendees will somehow find more truthful belief than those in a church without hardcore dogma. We forget in our calculation of speaking about either of these churches that individuals pave their own way and choose their own directions and beliefs and that the acceptance or the rejection of core dogma does not guarantee anything one way or the other in the individual. Both ways will probably produce the same results in terms of who can explain why they believe what they do.

    By Blogger kurbis, at 3:22 PM  

  • Kurbis said: "Both ways will probably produce the same results in terms of who can explain why they believe what they do."

    But a core tenet of the postmodern church is not to have beliefs! Right belief doesn't matter, just right action.

    By Blogger bradley, at 3:17 AM  

  • The point I am making is that an institution may strive to have no tenets for a group to hold but an individual will always have beliefs of their own.

    By Blogger kurbis, at 5:21 PM  

  • Kurbis: "The point I am making is that an institution may strive to have no tenets for a group to hold but an individual will always have beliefs of their own."

    Gotcha. So then what binds the people in the institution together? Or are they sort of floating on their own?

    By Blogger bradley, at 12:09 PM  

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    By Blogger bradley, at 12:09 PM  

  • I would say that what binds them together would be the external acts. Worship, charity, encouragement, friendship, etc. These are things that bind people spiritually regardless of what is on the inside.

    What binds friends together? We are friends, right? We may have completely different ideas and beliefs and beliefs about beliefs, but are we not still somehow bound together? It doesnt take an institution to keep us together and to respect that the other loves Jesus and will do whatever it takes to serve him. It just takes a little bit of the human glue we call relationship.

    By Blogger kurbis, at 1:50 PM  

  • External acts bind people together spiritually? I guess I disagree. Maybe external acts bind people together emotionally and physically, but not spiritually. If anything, I think what binds us together spiritually is that we're doing those acts for the same person. And a part of that is believing the same things about him.

    By Blogger bradley, at 11:04 AM  

  • So you and I cannot bond spiritually if we do not believe the exact same things? Lets get more specific now. What things do we have to believe in in exactly the same way to be spiritually bound?

    I think your second to last sentence, "I think what binds us together spiritually is that we're doing those acts for the same person." only serves to make my point by the way. I dont think the emergent movement or the evangelical church would say they are serving different people. If they are both serving jesus then they can certainly be bound together spiritually. I can beleive something different about Jesus, about scripture, about God, about church, about the spirit, and still act in a way that someone different than I would and be of the same spirit with them, as the true church.

    If a hurricane hit a town where you and I were living and we had compassion on the residents and provided them food and shelter in the name of the Lord and then came together and prayed for them I dont think that our differing beliefs about the same God would nullify what we were doing. I think we would be together as the church at that point.

    Anyone else have any good comments? I would love to hear what people think about what I am saying. Its always good to know if you are full of it.

    By Blogger kurbis, at 1:29 PM  

  • Kurbis,

    Qualify your understanding of: "I can beleive something different about Jesus, about scripture, about God, about church, about the spirit, and still act in a way that someone different than I would and be of the same spirit with them, as the true church."

    Believing something different about Jesus is usually what constitues a cult. Do you mean something different?

    By Blogger Our Family, at 1:43 PM  

  • What I am speaking about is the difference in belief between the emergent movement and evangelicals. They will emphasize and focus on different aspects of Christ, and thus compose a belief from those aspects.

    Health and wealth churches preach that Jesus came to bountifully bless with money and other churches can believe that Jesus came to encourage us to live in poverty. That doesnt constitute a cult.

    I emphasize Jesus' earhtly ministry others emphasize his spiritual ministry. Different beliefs exist. Not a cult.

    This brings us back to where we were earlier in the discussion...Every person in a pew has different beliefs in Jesus. Their teachings, their experiences, their pain and loss, their joy and blessings all affect the way they look at Jesus. A church may teach the theology around Jesus, but what I hear and feel is different then the person next to me. An institution has its orthodoxy and individuals have their own beliefs (influenced by the institution, but their own all the same).

    By Blogger kurbis, at 6:46 PM  

  • Different beliefs and different emphasis are different things. Sure, some people see Jesus' feeding the poor as more important than his claiming to be the way, truth and life, but that's still the same person. He lived and breathed and died. There are true statements about his life and there are false ones. I think it's important to believe the true ones. Emergent people don't. I have a hard time thinking we worship the same person when we can't agree on anything similar between the two except a name.

    By Blogger bradley, at 4:22 AM  

  • I think for this conversation to be productive from here on out it would be important to hear from you what belief's one has that the other does not that make it so impossible to see eye to eye.

    Second, I find it a little rediculous that you make a statement that Emergent people dont believe true things about God. How many 'emergent' people do you know that you have nothing in common with except for the name "Jesus"? Im sure that you and Magstadt could sit down at coffee and discuss what you believe and you would find a lot in common. There is a lot of danger in such blanket statements.

    If I threw on you everything that I think I know about evangelicalism and put you in the corner of sticking only to those beliefs, how would you feel? Do you have no beliefs outside those defined by evangelicalism (which has no doctrine since it is a grouping)? Are you ultimately saying that the church is one set of a denomination's stated beliefs? Which one?

    By Blogger kurbis, at 9:28 PM  

  • Kurbis, I still think you're not quite getting my point. I think perhaps it's because of how radical the Christian postmodern position is. You asked what beliefs are different between the two. But when speaking of postmodern Christianity, you can't use the term belief. Rather, what is advocated is more of a positive attitude toward certain narratives or parts of a narrative. They would not say that they believe those things, because they don't think they're justified in any of their beliefs, since they are not confident that any of them are actually true. So while they enjoy the stories of Jesus and presume to have a relationship with him, they don't believe things about him, at least they don't claim to. So while perhaps some postmodern Christians hold beliefs, part of the essence of the emergent church is that we don't recognize truth and therefore shouldn't hold beliefs.

    What's more important to them is action. But I think that belief drives action. Why do something you don't believe in.

    I don't think that postmodern Christianity is a tenable position. Beliefs sneak in, because deep down we really do take ourselves to recognize certain things as true.

    By Blogger bradley, at 3:27 PM  

  • I think the hard thing about what you are saying is that I have yet to meet anyone who calls themself post-modern or emergent that would say that the ultimate end of all they think is to not believe anything at all. Furthermore I dont think I have ever read anything from that crowd that says "we aim to not believe anything."

    Perhaps people have said such things on behalf of the movement and I havent seen that. I would be open to hearing some quotes. However, I think it is important to remember that Kenneth Copeland has also made many statements on behalf of evangelical Christianity that I dont think you would claim as your beliefs.

    So maybe I am missing your point because I havent read such extreme statements as the ones you have read, but I also think you should see that my point has not been to necessarily say emergent = right as much as it has been to say that you cannot judge a movement solely by some statements of a few people that are part of the movement. Especially since we are all surrounded by people that would claim this type of belief that we still see believing things.

    By Blogger kurbis, at 8:35 PM  

  • Kurbis, I think it's the nature of the beast. I'm not sure they would openly admit that they shouldn't have beliefs, but if you follow the logic it's mandated.

    1) There's no truth (or there is truth, but it isn't knowable)
    2) We can't know the truth (from 1)
    3) If we believe things, they aren't true (or at least we can't know they're true) (from 2)
    4) A belief is justified if the person believing it has good reason to think it's true (definition)
    5) We're not justified in believing anything (from 4,3)

    So what postmoderns advocate is sort of an "acceptance" of a narrative or even the propositions in a narrative, but not strictly belief.

    By Blogger bradley, at 12:25 PM  

  • Brad, thats the problem. You can use logic all day if you dont actually have to know the people you are talking about. But you do know them, and they have beliefs. Call them tenets, call them an "acceptance of a narrative", whatever.

    The point is, you are making radical statements using logic that dont actually represent what is happening in the real world. When your conclusion of your logic doesnt match what people are actually doing there is an error somewhere.

    By Blogger kurbis, at 11:11 AM  

  • So the logic is wrong? Or people are acting illogically? I guess the second one is possible. But that should make them think twice about what they're asserting. "I'm going to say it, but I'm not going to stick to it." Not a great way to build a worldview.

    By Blogger bradley, at 3:23 PM  

  • My point is that your logic is flawed, not theirs. They arent putting a view of themselves together, you are. At any rate, I think that this can only sink into semantics (or has it already?) so I dont know if it will be productive to go much further.

    Love always,
    BFF
    Brian

    By Blogger kurbis, at 9:46 PM  

  • Please tell me where the logic is flawed. It is a valid argument, so if the premises are true, so is the conclusion. Which premise would they disagree with? If you want to argue that logic is inapplicable, then we can't have a discussion, because I take the laws of logic to be necessarily true, and I've followed thme.

    By Blogger bradley, at 3:35 AM  

  • Did god create the "law of logic" or did men? God seems kindof illogical to me sometimes, i don't know that logic should be the ultimate guide in a discussion about how to believe and follow a supernatural being....i heard this was an interesting thread boys....i just had to check it out

    By Blogger kyle, at 11:02 AM  

  • Kyle, that's a good question. I certainly don't think men created the laws of logic. Either God created them or they exist necessarily.

    So, for example (Ayn Rand's favorite), A is A. Which is to say, a thing is what it is and it is not something else. I have a hard time believing God could have created the world otherwise, where a thing is not itself.

    God acting illogical is different than the laws of logic. I am quite sure that God does not think things are not themselves, and if p=q and q=r, then I believe God knows that that means p=r. His actions we may perceive as illogical, but I'm not talking about motives or goals, I'm talking about strict logical necessity.

    By Blogger bradley, at 3:55 PM  

  • not to be rude but i really don't care....i am not getting involved in some silly argument about logic that will have no impact on my actually real life, i shouldn't have made a comment to begin with....hope california is well

    By Blogger kyle, at 8:55 PM  

  • Hey, if you don't think it's important then I'm not going to try to convince you that it is. I was just responding.

    By Blogger bradley, at 2:44 AM  

  • Brad,

    Here is why your logic is false:

    I know emergent people that have beliefs they feel are justified.

    Thats it! That is all I have to say! The point of all of this is that you can not categorize and make a decision about an entire group of people you know nothing about.

    Furthermore, lets go back to your logic construct. If your first step stated "There is truth" how the hell can you gauruntee that we could find out what it is? How can you, someone born 24 years ago on a planet 6000 to billions of years old claim to be able to find the truth in a world with truth claims fighting against one another? What does your logic layout look like for that (really, I am wondering)

    Ultimately the post-modern fits into the same mold as the modernist at the end of the day. We all only have hope and the result of that for all of us is faith.

    What you said is "I dont think they would openly admit they dont have beliefs" whereas I would say "I dont think they would openly admit they do have beliefs".

    By Blogger kurbis, at 8:33 AM  

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